Episode 20
Stuart Hobley, Charity Director & Grantmaker
On this episode of The Friday Film Club we are joined by the excellent Stuart Hobley. Stuart is a grantmaker, having previously worked at The National Lottery, and gives us some top tips for how to get the best from your funding application. PLUS we go on an 80s throwback and have a good ol' rant about Disney, because why not!
Connect with Stuart on Twitter: @stuarthobley on Twitter
Connect with Stuart on Instagram: @null on Instagram
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The Friday Film Club is an original podcast by The Podcast Boutique.
Transcript
Hello, and welcome to the Friday film club. On this episode, I'm joined by Stuart Hobley, who is a charity director. He's on the mayor of London's culture board, and he's a BAFTA games judge. So welcome to the show Stewart. Hi. Yeah, thank you very much for joining me. Um, I'm assuming because of your, uh, your glowing resume that you, you know, a thing or two about film?
[:Well, uh, not professionally, I suppose it's just been something I've been obsessed with for a very long time. I think from a very early age, just really fell in love with watching films over and over again. So, yeah. Good. Well, I can't wait to, to have a chat with you and find out what your answers are, but before we go into that and tell us a little bit about what exactly it is.
[:So, uh, my career has been in grantmaking. So for a long time, I worked for the national lottery and a lot of people obviously think about playing the lottery games and winning loads of millions of pounds and paying off your mortgage, all those kinds of things that people want to do. But obviously a lot of the money that's raised goes to good causes.
[:So for 15 years, I worked for the lottery in terms of how they give the money away to good causes. And it's really interesting because when you say to people that you worked for the lottery. Almost always people would say, what are the numbers coming up on Saturday? Okay. Which sadly, uh, I was never able to give that assurance or there's somebody did wants to tell me, I'm sure it was someone who worked for Camelot.
[:There are a group of numbers that people pick statistically less. Uh, and so if a combination of those numbers come up, you're more likely to win the bigger prize. You're not more likely to win, but you probably would get a bigger prize. Yeah. I'm assuming that anything over 31 is probably picked less often because people go for better.
[:Yeah, it tends to be the numbers. I'm told that made up the bottom left-hand corner of the grid because people tend to pick birthdays, but then they think, oh, but what if a 50 comes up? So I pick a, put a few of those in the lonely 36 and 37. They just never get picked. And so that's, that's the top tip. If you're going to pick your own numbers, go for 36 and 37.
[:Yeah. So that's, I know I work for an organization called the trust. And again, what we do is we give away grants for a whole range of different types of organizations and the people apply to us and we take a view on the projects and then we make the grants and we monitor them and we help people to deliver the projects.
[:And just generally to make a difference out there. So, is there any particular project or a grant that has kind of stuck with you? Any, any, anything that's of particular significance to you? I guess? Um, there's been some really interesting stuff of late that we've funded. Uh, we're we're funding an organization down in Bristol called power orchestra, and they work with a lot of disabled musicians and dancers and choreographers, and they put on.
[:Uh, a big event at the end of last summer called smoosh in Bristol. And it was really this kind of just this amazing kind of dance routine, lots of popular music. They paraded through parts of Bristol. And it was just a really lovely, joyful thing. I kind of real antidote to us all being locked away in our homes because of COVID.
[:Um, and it just enabled them to really sort of support the dancers, support the choreographers, develop all the kind of production they were going to do. And it was just something. Really tremendous and effectively, you can actually see the film a bit on YouTube. It's really, it's just extraordinary. Just seeing people just so happy and doing something as simple as just dancing in the street.
[:Yeah, it was incredible. So we fund a huge range of things. You know, we, we do a lot of work in terms of arts and culture, but we also fund a lot of projects which are about supporting refugees and asylum seekers as well as homelessness and addressing sort of social issues like that. So it's a, it's a real broad range of work that we.
[:Yeah. And so on the subject of COVID have, have you found that, uh, the, the, the pandemic and the impact of that has had an effect on the types of charities that are reaching out for. Yeah, I think lots of organizations have really struggled and so many grantmaking bodies, whether it's a trusts and foundations or the national lottery or whoever it is, have done some really extraordinary work just to make sure so many organizations are able to survive and just kind of continue.
[:And I think, you know, many organizations have now in this situation where. They're slowly starting to kind of consolidate and get things back together, but there's also this kind of expectation that thought do as well as doing everything in person. They've now been able to develop things online and sort of being able to kind of offer that.
[:And that's, I think a real, um, there's lots of opportunity in that, but it's a real tension as well. And I, you know, it's great that some of us have been able to. Arts and culture into your living room, they'll be able to kind of watch things. So your TVs and in-person, but not everyone has that opportunity.
[:So I think a lot of organizations have to kind of recalibrate and kind of think about how they move forward from COVID. Um, and I think a lot of it will be about consolidating and really thinking about who are the people that want to work with. Yeah. That's, that's really interesting. And we'll, we'll, we'll talk more about that, um, through the show, but let's dive in and see what you've got for some of these questions.
[:So the first. Uh, going in big. What is your favorite film of all? See, I thought about this a lot. And, uh, I am like a lot of people who I think you've probably come on your podcast. I think everyone's really tempted to say, well, here's a big Kubrick film or here's like a Bergman film or something, but it's none of those things, I guess there's two possible answers to this.
[:The first is, which is Ferris Bueller's day off is. One of my absolute all time. Favorite films. I mean, I think if you grew up in the late eighties in Britain, as I did going to comprehensive school, your kind of cultural touchstone was Grange hill. So kind of watching this exotic world that Ferris Bueller lived in was just, uh, and it's just such a funny film.
[:And I think every. Of it really comes together. Uh, and I know lots of people sort of talk about first as a complete sociopath. And I think that's probably true. I think he is, but alarmingly, that kind of makes it more fun in a really weird way. So that is absolutely one of my favorite films and there's just so much going on.
[:And it, the, the, the school secretary, I think she's played by an actress called ed McClurg. Uh, she's just so funny in every scene she's in and she's always doing something weird in the background, just feeling the scene out from everybody. And it's just one of those films that whenever I watch it, I always pick up something new that I didn't see before.
[:Yeah. I have to say, ah, haven't seen Ferris beautiful for some years. And I guess that, that genre was a little bit before my time by, I love that that genre that was kind of defined by John Q's, you know, stuff like, you know, the breakfast club and, um, very spirited was really kind of, of that, that ilk. And I, by always remember, uh, I say, I always remember, I always go back to the, the, the scene it's like the.
[:And we're right inside. It's like a carnival or a parade and a twist and shout, and they do the big performance. I love that scene so much. It's definitely one of those kinds of iconic moments of cinema. And I think you're right in terms of the John Hughes films and all the ones he'd done it up to four, that many of which were very good, but it's almost sort of like Ferriss when all of the various things he saw, all his tropes kind of come together.
[:In the best way. It's like all the others were a slight rehearsal for this film. Um, and for me it just, it just comes together beautifully. And we, you know, when I watch it now, it's kind of his best friend, Cameron. Who's the kind of very sad, very lonely guy in this film in, uh, in many ways the films back.
[:Uh, and it's his journey and there's, again, lots of theories about what that means. And lots of people sort of say, is it a slightly fight clubish film is Ferris all in Cameron's head. Is it kind of all of these kinds of norms that you can, you can overlay on it? Whether or not that's true. I don't know, but it's definitely one of my all time.
[:I mean, I used to be able to recite huge chunks of it back in the day, but I can't re I can't do that anymore. Yeah, I do. I love that Ferris. Isn't a wholly likable character and that there is a lot of layers to it, you know, at face value is a really basic coming of age film, but you're right. There's, there's a lot more going on with every watch.
[:You do get a bit more out of it. Um, and I, what I really love from Ferris bureau is that I'm, I'm very much 900. Coming of age, film sort of generation. But when you watch something like Ferris, Bueller, you see how that's informed stuff like American pie so much, it's just the American pie films are just a bit crapper.
[:Um, but like, as you say, the tropes are all there and they use them for me. So, yeah. It's I love it. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I mean, it's basically a Spiderman for them as well, but without the super nearest, so he's basically complete Peter Parker and the head teacher is the kind of the kind of slightly gone to seed power, mad green goblin.
[:And they have this fight all over Chicago. I mean, it's, you know, and it's, it's no surprise that so many of the Spider-Man films at various points riff or. Um, Ferris Bueller there's even one of the Spider-Man films. I can't think which one it is. I'm sure it's a Tom Holland one where they, they literally recreate the scene where Ferris runs through people's back gardens and jumps across chat, trampolines and stuff.
[:I'm pretty sure that's what it was to on film. So I think there's, there's that real kind of baseline to it, which informs everything that's come after. Yeah. And I think it's one of the, like there's references in like say the, the Tom Holland Spider-Man films that I think that's probably because the kids that grew up with Ferris.
[:And now the people making films in Hollywood. So you've got this, like this cycle where it's all come around. Now, those films are being referenced and a really informing the stuff that's coming out. I think that's it. You know, you get to the point where you are, that kind of filmmaker and you kind of think, well, I want to recreate that scene from that film that I love as a kid, I want to make a nice sort of cheeky wink to it.
[:At some point during the film that everyone will get, or some people will get absolutely. How could you not do that? It must be irresistible if you're in that situation to kind of play with that sort of stuff. I mean, that's must be part of the Julia. Of course. Yeah. And I guess, you know, as you say, you want to, even if no one else gets the reference or picks up on these little kind of Easter eggs that you drop in there, you do it for yourself.
[:So you can, you can kind of say, ah, yes. Yeah, I did that. It's a bit Intel Jedi for making a Hollywood film. I, I guess you have freedom. Well, exactly. I mean the whole nature, I think of making a film, there's an element of self-indulgence to that, but talking about films that you absolutely don't want to remember.
[:Um, what's your least, that's hard because I kind of quite like that filmed. Uh, there's a lot of fun to be had for watching those really shonky wobbly 50 scifi horror films, that kind of mystery science theater stuff, where you sit and watch a film and you just rip it to shreds and you kind of notice all of the kind of failings within it.
[:And nobody really sets out to make. Some truly awful films have been made. And I think a lot of them have a huge amount of charm. You know, there's some of them you watch and you just sort of think God, they really went for it. They really put everything they could into this film still just genuinely awful.
[:Uh, so it's quite hard for me to find a film that I genuinely dislike, but I will mention a film. I watch very recently, which I really found hard going, and that is a marvelous internals film. I've, I've not seen a yet, but I'm curious as to know why there's something really quite leaden about it and a bit more gross.
[:And it's really strange because most of them are, you know, you think the last 10 years, Marvel has spent a long time building this big arc about this big supervillain called FAMIS and all of the terrible things he's going to do and wiping out half of the population. And, you know, none of the heroes could defeat him.
[:And then in the first 10 minutes of this film, they're sort of like, oh yeah. And there's some other bad guys that are even worse and they just introduce this very quickly and you think, oh, wow. Okay. That's that's big. Um, and it's, it's, it's the color scheme in the film. It's sort of, um, I don't know how to describe it.
[:It's like the deluxe boredom paint chart, really muted sort of like more screens and kind of. Really kind of dirty blues and a lot of it takes place seemingly at dusk. So, you know, I find myself sort of looking at the screen, thinking what's going on, like, you know, the old guy from up, I'm just like watching this film and being really grumpy about it.
[:So it's, and when you look at the original comic on which it's based, it was a really colorful and vibrant comics. It's kind of strange. That's translated into this very heavy film. I mean, there's some great stuff and there's a lot of good Saifai concept stuff in it, but it, it it's, it doesn't quite work for me.
[:I have to say. Fair enough. So where, where are you generally in terms of Marvel films? Are you, are you pro or con yeah, definitely pro I mean, I think they're a mixed bag and some of them are better than others and I, it's probably not like, not necessarily watching them all in order. So sometimes you watch one and you think they're definitely making reference to something I've not watched yet.
[:Um, and I think, but I think what they're very. Is recognizing, recognizing that I think, you know, if you're coming to it new, I think they, they work very hard to make sure it's not impenetrable so that you can just enjoy it as a film. Uh, and that, you know, all that, all the kind of like, um, the mythology of it, you can enjoy.
[:And if you're really into it, you can enjoy the layers of it. And I think they, again, they really seed lots of history and comic book geekery into it so that people really get stuff. And they're very good at connecting. Without making it feel like you're watching part two of a three-part films. You know what I mean?
[:Like I think some of the Lord of the rings films really suffered from feeling like you've just watched the filler episode, whereas actually. Yeah, I, I completely agree the issue I've had, especially in the last year, since Disney pluses launched, they've suddenly got this platform to start releasing, not just films, but loads of series.
[:And they're all part of the cannon. And you kind of, if you really want to really want to like, uh, absorb. That timeline and you've got to watch it. Oh. And I just, I feel like it's been a bit overkill this year and I get to the point where I don't want to watch any of them because I really want to, I really want to experience it as it's supposed to be expensive.
[:Yeah, I think it can be quite overwhelming. Like you say, you sort of see the whole sort of Pantheon of like films and then there's the TV series or when then we made some animated stuff as well. And then there's the short films they've made. It's a bit like, I suppose if you're new to it, it's like, where do I, where do I start without kind of getting completely swamped by all of this stuff?
[:And I think the TV shows have been quite hit and miss actually I've definitely had mixed things. So I wonder division of power needs. One division is very good. I think if you're a real student of television, it's a very cleverly crafted essay on kind of sitcom, parodies and structures, particularly in American TV over the last kind of 30, 40, 50 years.
[:And I think they milk that for all this worst, even cleverly. That's the, all of the time, uh, that the sitcoms would've been broadcast. So whether it's kind of be witched or Malcolm in the middle, you know, they're, they're really on point with that. And I thought that was a very, I thought that was a very clever and creative move for them in a way that you often don't see a lot in these kind of big budget kind of franchises to kind of give that flexibility I thought was really great.
[:Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's a perfect example of how the Disney machine is now so big. That they no longer have to restrict themselves to referencing just Marvel. They can reference so much because of course it includes Fox now as well. We'll be owned by Disney at some point it's going to come to keep you fed.
[:So, I mean, we'll all be working to Disney in the future. I'm sure. Um, yeah, absolutely convinced moving on. Which film or TV character do you most relate to? So in my head, I think to myself, I really like to be like John, Steve from the Avengers, the kind of sixties show, which they remade as a film, you know, he's calm.
[:Um, you know, he's sort of just. Charm personified. Uh, and he solves crimes and drives a cool car. I mean, who wouldn't want to be that guy? I think the reality is probably, I think the reality is I'm probably more like Colombo sort of slightly stumbling, wearing something that really should have been ironed, procrastinating, easily distracted.
[:So I'm probably a bit more like that. Or I don't know if you've seen a film called clockwise with John CLIs. I haven't. Uh, he plays a really sort of uptight head teacher who ends up being late for everything. And he's someone that prides himself on being on time for everything, and then ends up in a series of increasingly sort of hilarious, unlikely situations that just make him increasingly late for everything he was willing to do.
[:And I sometimes feel a lot like that. Always behind the curve. I'm always running late and just getting increasingly irritated. So that's probably the reality, but it's definitely John, Steve, Lola hat, Tweed interested. And I guess, well, while we're on the subject, tell us more about how you got into that whole path.
[:Uh, working in the third sector. So, so how did life take you on that path? Yeah, not directly. That's for sure. I mean, I went to university and studied product design. Uh, you know, how, how you learn to design all the products you use around your hate house. Um, which, uh, was a course I didn't enjoy and sort of left halfway through because it started off as something I was really interested in.
[:And then halfway through, I thought I don't want to be designing capitols and climbing frames. There's a. Quite clearly, I'm going to be no good at it. So, I mean, why would I, why would I want to design bad chemicals? I mean, that's a terrible aspiration. So I ended up just going to art school and I studied illustration and things like animation, which was a lot more my style.
[:And I just kind of. Accidentally kind of fell into the sector. I had been working for awhile for an energy company, you know, like kind of the people that supply your gas and your energy and into like a call center situation. Like we've all done that kind of kind of stuff. And I saw a job advertised, working for a charity where they wanted someone.
[:Yeah. The grants officer to kind of help them give away money for volunteer run projects that took place in hospitals, rusty. And I thought that just sounded really mad. Like how could that possibly be a real job? And I applied for it and just, you know, randomly, I just, oh, I'll apply for this. And so I kind of just went to the interview and told them why thoughts and against all the odds they offered me the job.
[:And that's where I stopped. I'd love to know what I said, Nate, you, because I could use it in other interviews I've had in my life. That's for sure. But I got the job and that's, and that's what led me to where I'm at. What do you find is the most rewarding thing about the job? I mean, you know, getting to spend other people's money is when you great.
[:But on a more on a less superficial level, you know, some of the organizations are making incredible differences in people's lives. Some of the organizations we work with are really transforming lives, taking people, and, you know, it's a huge range from taking people out of poverty, through to supporting people with the educational development.
[:Just through to kind of making things like museums and art galleries, better places to visit more accessible places to visit because all of these things cost money, you know, and they always cost so much more money than people realize. Yeah. And so having grant bodies, like the one I worked for the lottery and lots of others, it really has transformed the UK to make it somewhere where people can apply for money, whether it's 500 quid or 5 million quid to kind of make things better.
[:Yeah, that's, that's amazing. And I, so what, what do you think the future holds. Oh, gosh, that's a really good question. Um, I mean, I've only been in my current role a couple of years, so I'm not planning to move on just yet. I think within the world of grant making, there are lots of discussions about how you make grantmaking something that's easier.
[:I think one of the big fears people have when they apply for funding, you have to fit in a lot of forms. The forms can be really badly designed. You know, they're not necessarily written or explained in a way that's very accessible. I think there's often conversations about did do the people who are really good at writing those forms, get the money, even if their ideas aren't that great.
[:And therefore, if you've got a really good idea, but you're not still good at getting it across, do you kind of lose out? So there's lots of discussions about how you make things. I got fairer, a lot more accessible, how grant makers recognize the power they have, um, and the privilege they have. Cause you don't really want a parent child relationship.
[:You kind of want to have a peer relationship, but they're organizations you're supporting. So there's lots of discussions about that going on, which I think are really, really tough. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's a, it's a really valid point because you know, a lot of, a lot of local charities particularly are, are powered by volunteers who are amazing, hardworking people, but they've never necessarily had to spend years honing the sort of skillset that you would typically need to master a grant application.
[:That's exactly it. And for some of them, you know, they're working. They might have a day job. And then they're doing the charity stuff in the evening that they're probably all volunteers. They might not have any paid staff. And if they do have paid staff, they might not be fundraisers. So it's about recognizing that when you're a grumpy giver and having real empathy for the situation that people are in and giving them as much support as you can, so that they can articulate what they need in the best post.
[:Yeah. And, you know, I think the national lottery is, uh, as has been for what best of 30 years now, a prime example of how a charity can kind of leverage the power of media to really get the most out of what it does. I mean, the lottery has grown into an organization that gives one tens, maybe hundreds of billions, a year to charity.
[:And now. Even though with 30 years from when national lottery first started, you know, there's some kind of the biggest player, it kind of in that space, but how do you think kind of the future with new technology and new ways of fundraising, and particularly now with a lot of like crowdfunding platforms that exist.
[:How do you think that relationship has changed between sort of charities and the people that fund them? Yeah, I think that is a really good question. And there are lots of funders who are looking at looking at how they use some of that technology in their grant making. So. Could somebody make their application for funding using a short film, rather than filling in an application form, you know, lots of grant funds been experimenting with that work.
[:Some do it really well. Um, so it's really thinking about the best way of using technology like that. And I think as well in the world of fundraising, uh, there's lots of very clever fundraising, which uses technology like that. Not just in terms of go fund me and online stuff like that. Like Kickstarter and others.
[:But also, um, you know, you've seen a lot in the video games community about how they use video games to raise money and things like that. So there's, I think there's huge innovations to be found in all of that. And even people are looking at things like, you know, cryptocurrency and how that works, uh, in terms of.
[:Um, could you conceivably pay a charity that grant funding in that way? I, I have no idea to the answer to that, but I know lots of people. Yeah. And I think 95% of people still have no idea what cryptocurrency even is nuclear at all. I have no idea what my name is. Oh yeah. Don't get me started on NFTs on, uh, I I'm, I'm feeling old because all these new things are coming up and I'm life like don't get me started.
[:I just, I, let me stick with what I know. So if your life was a movie who would play. Yeah, this is another one I thought long and hard about because I really like Cary grant films. And you kind of look at those films and again, it must be all about the suit, but you know, you look at those films, these well-dressed guys, and you think, yeah, that could be me, right.
[:That could be me. He's too short. Um, you know, I'm six foot five. So, uh, it doesn't really come across on zoom my height, but, uh, can we ground, it could be, be too short. Um, so I probably would be somebody like Christopher Lee, because he's the same height as me. Uh, and he always, in many films, he plays somebody who's like easily irritable, which is another of my traits, unfortunately.
[:So I think we just need to have that of slightly grumpy, slightly grumpy, uh, exterior quite down. I think he did very well. So that kind of uptight Englishman, I think he'd be very good at, as I did. I did last year dress up as David Nivon. Uh, I can really, I can really see you like being a. That's well, thank you very much.
[:Yeah. It's really all mustache. And you'll be your that if only I could know, but that was for. That was for a tweet along with a, there's a Twitter account called the film crowd and they do three, two longs a couple of times a week. And it's run by these really great people. And there are a lot of fun. And so I think, uh, it must've been death on the knob was on my player and we sort of various people dressed up for it, including myself.
[:And then we tweeted along to the film, but most of them, the tweets along just laughing at what we were all wearing. Right. You bet the film. So let's give then as, as the, I think that's, that's a great shell. What, what, what part of your life do you imagine being the most cinematic, I guess? Oh God, that's an excellent question.
[:What part of my life would be the most cinema? I guess when I was up until about the age of seven or eight, I lived overseas. So, I mean, I guess that would be an interesting kind of film. Maybe, maybe coming back to the UK and kind of experiencing it for the first time at that age was a bit of a culture shock.
[:So maybe that would make a great kind of a coming of age film. Christopher Lee would be to talk by that point though. I don't know who, but yeah. Yeah. You'd have to, to work some, a CGI magic, I think, to make that one work, but talking of childhood, uh, what is your most nostalgic film? Yeah, so that's what I just said up until the age of about seven.
[:We lived overseas, so I'd never really been to the cinema. Uh, and my parents used to rent films up until that point from like a local video shop that had English language films, and they'd come on Betamax, which shows you how horribly older. But all the films I need, and this was like 1985, something like that.
[:But all of the films that they would rent were by then at least 10 years old, if not 15 or 20. So they were the blockbusters of yesteryear. So it was things like the Cannonball run films and the smoke in the film. So I hadn't realized that. That kind of end of term style film. Uh, I have a real love for that kind of love, I would say, but you know, there's something about them, which feels very homely to me, but I, I, I guess the most nostalgic film was probably one of the first films I saw in the cinema.
[:And that was when we'd come back to live in the UK. And, uh, it was Tim Burton's Batman film. The first one he did. I became utterly obsessed with it. I mean, obsessed with it. I used to build stuff out of Lego. Um, I worked in a news agents as a paper boy, and whenever I get my, like the two pounds, wherever it is, you're paid, I buy all the magazines and the tie-in comics in that news agents that have Batman it to kind of just become slightly.
[:I mean, it was that's capitalism for you. I mean, he did all right in the new stage, but I just think utterly obsessed with that Batman. Yeah. Yeah. The first film, I think my dad took me to the cinema to see, and I remember he fell asleep. So how engaged he was. And I probably spent the winds of the car journey on the way home telling him everything that happened.
[:And I still remember it now just being utterly blown away by the whole experience. Um, what, what are your thoughts being? So I'm fond of the original Batman. Uh, what, what are your thoughts on the darker, uh, like. Yeah, because of course, we've got another one coming this this year. I know. I kind of think, well, we're going to get, are we going to get another dark and gritty Batman of him, you know, set Pia tinted Gotham skylines with him looking really moody for two hours.
[:It looks exactly like that's what it's going to be. Right. I know the slow motion origin scene of his parents being gunned down in crime alley. You kind of think maybe we could just go back to the kind of pop up 1966 Batman and have a really colorful, happy one for each. I just find the feel like it's near the gritty realistic Batman.
[:Okay. I think that's been done now. I, I, is it me though? Or does it feel like, like DC, because Marvel is kind of finding its style in being a little bit tongue in cheek, a little bit more fun, DC, uh, trying to deliberately be something different. They're just going way too far, the other way, and being really dark.
[:I think you're right there trying to make us all feel like we have to suffer for our art. It's a shame that DC has never really quite got into the groove with the films. Cause I do think that comics and the original comics personally are better than the kind of the Marvel stuff, but I think Marvel have really, you know, they've just, they've just owned it with the films and the way that DC haven't quite ever hit it there's been some good ones I think.
[:Uh, Shizam was good. And I think that the one who film films a very good. You know, as a set, they don't really hang together very well at all. Unlike Marvel where it really feels like a kind of curator. Yeah, definitely. I bet DC was sort of rubbing their hands back in like 2007 because, uh, you know, they had Superman and they had Batman and they, you know, they were very much like the, probably, I would say the two most well-known superheroes.
[:And then Marvel was saying, no, we're going to launch a new franchise and we're going to kick it off with iron man. Did you say you were probably thinking, yeah. All right. You carry on with that. You can imagine the DC executives could have be like, oh my God, this is going to fail by then. Okay. Exactly.
[:Yeah. But yeah. And, and 10 years later, um, look, who's laughing. I know, I know. I know. And you end up with all those campaigns to rerelease films that have already been out in different edits and it's yeah. It feels really. Yeah. Yeah. But it would be nice to see DC go back to the sort of style that they delivered with them with the original Batman.
[:Because as you say with films, like shazamm, they were a bit more fun and it, it was really. Yeah, it was a really enjoyable film. I think the same for the one in films, they just felt like films that really understood what the property was about. And everyone was having a good time making it and they just kind of worked.
[:Uh, I think DC has spent too much time trying to build the big universe, which Marvel kind of have built as they've gone along to some degree, you know, they've got, they've got the track record of doing it. And I think DC have just kind of looked at the end product and try to replicate that rather than building something unique.
[:Yeah. And I don't think it helps that they have a changing cast as well. Like they've got three different junkers. They've got like now two different, um, Batman's, they've got Superman changing. It's just like, there's no consistency there. Whereas Marvel, they locked in like Robert Downey Jr. And they locked in, um, Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth and you know, so they became the faces of the franchise.
[:And there was that element of consistency over a whole decade. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Whereas people picking up on the DC stuff, it's, it's hard to know what you're watching. Yeah, definitely. Um, well I guess that, that takes us sort of nicely onto the last question, which is what's your guilty pleasure. Yeah.
[:Which weirdly is another superhero film and is one of the ones we've just been talking about, which is Superman three, which. In my opinion, and this is a hill I will die on. It's the best, the Superman films. And I know there'll be people screaming probably now the podcast that I've just committed, some kind of heresy against the first two films.
[:I'm going to scream this out here right now because Superman two is surely the best of the, of the franchise. I really like Superman too. I really, I like it more than Superman. And I think the first kind of hour of it is great. The buildup, the villains, uh, it all works really, really well. The kind of Superman, the coming human, I think that's terrific.
[:I think it all falls apart towards the end because you have these almighty powerful. And they can't quite realize effectively on screen that kind of command. And you have gene Hackman popping up to distract them to make sure we don't quite use their superpowers. And it just, I, for me, it doesn't quite gel very well.
[:Whereas Superman three, which I completely get is a bit of a mess and it's totally all over the place, you know? Slapstick comedy at the end. You've got bottom mark. Now you've got slapstick comedy at the beginning, and then at the end you've got body horror stuff and it's, it's weird. It's just, you would never put those two things together, but I just, I just enjoy it.
[:And I think Christopher Reeve, particularly when he becomes equal Superman and the scene in the, um, in the car crushing yard, I think he's exceptional. I think this is best, best suit matters. I mean, I, I guess, uh, we'll have to agree to disagree on the best Superman franchise, but I guess that's why it's a guilty pleasure.
[:But you would have thought though that Spiderman would have taken a hint from Superman three and four. If we're going to do the kind of evil version, the kind of evil twin narrative, they didn't Spiderman three and maybe just watch Superman three and just, just, just see how difficult. Yeah. I wonder if, when they were filming that and they were doing the dance routine stuff.
[:I wonder if I had anyone kind of looked at the rushes and went, yeah, that's not right. I think that they would too. They were too deep at that point. They had to just go with, I think he was like all in it. Just go for it. Come on. Hit those dance routines. Yeah. Yeah. That I can't, I don't know what they were thinking about that one, but um, yeah, Superman three, at least you didn't say Superman.
[:Yeah, I think you would have ended the zoom call right then too. I think you could have, you could have literally said right. We're not using this. Yeah. But now I just, again, I think what probably agree on is that that original Superman franchise set the standard for superheroes. I think it did, I think very much.
[:And I think they, they weren't certainly the first three, I think, worked very well as a trilogy. And I think it was, it was at that door neck sort of Dawn of special effects when they could, you know, really kind of make people go, oh, wow. Okay. So you can do this. I think at that point, things had never quite worked.
[:Right. And at the same time star wars was kicking off. So I think you can really seek this. Escalation between the different franchises to be the best. And I think, you know, blockbuster films are really coming into their own at that point. So, um, yeah, I, I definitely agree that the, that first suit man particularly really made people realize that a superhero film could be a very serious film.
[:It didn't have to be all kind of glitzy costumes and, you know, foolishness. It could be something with a real heart to it. And I think cinema fans and particularly superhero movie fans are really spoiled nowadays, because particularly in, I think in both of our times, you know, right up until the 21st century, like there was some, there was this like big kind of Renaissance in special effects.
[:So all we had to do was put the latest technology at the screen and like putting loads of it in there. And we were just blown away. Nowadays, you can't just like, you can't throw special effects at a screen and expect people to come. You got to have story and yeah, which I think some of those original, like the first Superman near the scene at the end when he screams, cause Lois is dead.
[:I mean, spoilers, sorry, not seen it, but that's really affecting, I mean, it's just like a really shocking scene and the way that they cut all the incidental music out and it's just silent for like a minute. Uh, and the way she kind of drowns in the car in the gravel, it's, it's a really shocking moment. And I think they're trying to get back now to that mix of special effects, but also a good story and a bit hard, because I think there was a point, like you say, where superhero movies, which are CGI and some of those have dated horribly.
[:So I think, yeah, they're definitely getting back to kind of thinking about just how you tell a really, really cracking. Yeah, absolutely. And I think just to put a final note on that, if you want an example of how superhero movies really lost their way, I got carried away with special effects, watch the opening title sequence of, I think it was X to be the original X-Men sequel.
[:And it's so nineties it's. So dated is the one of the most cringe-worthy. Sequences I've seen in a superhero movie and it just, yeah, it's just awful. It's just awful. So that would be your, I think it would, yeah, I have a few, but I think specifically the, the opening titles to ex mento is, is, is just, or. Uh, thank you shirt for your choices.
[:Uh, it's a, an amazing set of answers and a bit of a throwback before I let you go. I do remind everyone where they can connect with you so you can follow me on Twitter at Stewart, hopefully. Um, and that's about it. Nice and simple. Um, but it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you so much.
[:And hopefully we can get you back sometime. Yeah, we'll have to watch the Batman field together and really kind of like mum grumble about the dark and moody. This absolutely will. You are, I'll lock you in stop. Do a Batman, a special someone in the future. Great. Thank you. That's it. For this episode of the Friday film club, I do hope you enjoyed it.
